Last season NUST were one of the kit sponsors for Sarah Wilson, Captain of Newcastle United Women's Football Club (NUWFC).
We caught up with Sarah in advance of the new season and found out how the past year had gone for the girls in black & white and what the hopes & expectations were for the coming season.
NUST were one of your kit sponsor's last season, did it make it extra special knowing that hundreds of your fellow Newcastle United fans had combined to help with enabling you to play for Newcastle United's Women's Football Club?
"Yes, it's a great feeling knowing that there are lots of Newcastle United fans out there willing to support the women's team. It's a great help and relieves alot of stress knowing that I don't need to worry about finding money so that I can play."
Can you explain to our members and other fans, how the finances of the Newcastle United Women's team work?
"Our team is self-funded, meaning that the girls set out to find individual sponsors to help cover the costs of travel, training, kit and signing on fees. However, in some cases where sponsors aren't available we have to 'pay to play'. We need to make sure that every month our training facilities are paid for otherwise we can't train."
Obviously the women's team must get loads of help from Newcastle United?
On Saturday 22nd June NUST Board Member Peter Fanning attended the Supporters Summit organised by Supporters Direct and the Football Supporters Federation. The Summit was attended by over 300 fans from supporters groups around the UK and Europe and was aimed at bringing supporters together to discuss the challenging issues facing football clubs and the supporters who are the lifeblood of the game. The following is Peter's report from the Summit. :
St Georges Park, where the summit was held, is the new FA National Football Centre and will be the training base for all of England's teams. It is an impressive and beautiful setting with 11 full size pitches, one an exactly replica of Wembley, a full size indoor pitch, the best facilities that sports medical science can offer including rehabilitation and performance centres and there are two hotels on site. The FA will also provide a comprehensive set of coaching courses as well as having facilities for conferences discussing plans for the future of the sport in the UK.
During the day there were workshops in which expert panels discussed football finance, away fans' issues, fan engagement, sustainability, football governance, asset protection, supporter ownership, safe standing and discrimination.
Opening Session – State of the Game
In the opening session David Bernstein, the outgoing Chairman of the FA talked about the FA's 150 Year celebration this year and told delegates about the development of the fantastic St. George's Centre facility. He then went on to talk about the importance of the relationship between fans and owners and of the need to ask probing questions of each other to make the fan experience as good as it can be. He also emphasised the positive role Supporters Trusts can play. He felt that the "them and us" culture which has developed between owners and fans cannot be good for the future of football. The links that clubs have to their local communities is what makes football special and Trusts can help to ensure that. He cautioned, however, that we must be pragmatic about what influence Trusts could expect to have in clubs but also stressed that clubs must develop structured relationships with Trusts.
David Bernstein was followed by a passionate Andy Burnham MP, the Former Culture Secretary and current Shadow Health Secretary. He's an Everton fan and he had a pivotal role in the formation of Supporters Direct and headed the government appointed Football Taskforce. He spoke highly of the benefits of Supporters Trusts - citing Northampton Town who set up the first and how he found that putting fans at the heart of the decision making at a club brought many positive results.
He went on to suggest that football needed to reassess its relationship with money and told how when, as Culture Secretary, he'd posed a number of questions to the FA and Premier League covering issues such as financial regulation, transparency in ownership, the 'fit and proper person' test, the need to protect home grown players, the current insolvency rules and the need for a competitive balance within the game.
He then read out what was an appalling response from the then FA Chairman Lord Triesman which Andy Burnham suggested proved that FA couldn't self-govern and that money ruled – something that many supporters strongly agree about - before accusing the FA of surrendering its authority over the professional game. He suggested the turning point was the creation of the Premier League and challenged the FA to assert its authority over the elite clubs who now appear to rule over the game.
Andy suggested the FA and Premier League need to think about the supporters of the game – arguing that current Premier League prices and allowing the fixtures to be scheduled by television companies are borne out of greed. He argued that football needed what he described as a "Levinson moment" to separate the decision makers and regulators from the vested interests of club chairmen and owners.
He also recommended that Supporters Trusts should be in place at all clubs and that if there was a way of legislating to provide tax and other incentives to encourage and support fan ownership he would work to have it included in the next Labour manifesto. He challenged delegates to provide him with the information to help him pursue this.
Andy Burnham was loudly applauded and, in what was an admirable move, David Bernstein asked for the opportunity to respond to some of the points raised about the role of the FA. He honestly concluded that in spite of what he felt were best efforts by the FA the least progress made during his time as Chairman was around governance of the game.
I attended a workshop called Reclaim our Game drawing on recent examples of positive fan involvement at clubs. The speakers represented Grimsby Town's Mariners Trust, Bradford City's Trust and a truly inspirational example of fan ownership at Real Oveido in Spain.
The next session for me was called Protect Your Stadium as an Asset of Community Value. It's not the snappiest title for a session or to be honest the most exciting subject but it explained how there is legislation in place to help Trusts to use the law to protect football stadia. It's not as big a deal for us because the City Council own our ground rather than Mr. Ashley, but it's something we may want to raise with them as a joint initiative.
The last session of the day for me was called Fan Engagement: Why It Works For Clubs and Fans. This presentation was by Tim Connelly, Vice President for Sales and Marketing at Green Bay Packers in America. It was another inspirational story about the only 100% fan owned American Football Team in the NFL. Bearing in mind how the USA is seen as the home of capitalism and free markets the Green Bay Packer story is well worth researching. The key point made for me by Tim was that when the American football clubs saw how much money television was going to bring to their game they decided to structure the deal so that everyone benefitted. Their league rules were designed to provide a level playing field where everyone would have a chance of winning the league each year. He admitted that this was the only way that a 100% fan owned club could survive in the NFL.
When our game was offered a huge TV contract the top few clubs did everything they could to ensure the top few clubs benefitted the most! Can it be right that 93% of television revenue goes to the top 20 clubs?
I'm pleased I went to the conference. There were some interesting sessions and the opportunity of a guided tour around the excellent St. George's Centre facility was fantastic. Whatever excuses our top players come up with next time we bomb at a big tournament it can have nothing to do with the training and development facilities provided for them or the medical and sports science expertise available to them.
The best part of attending the Summit was for me the chance to meet and talk to other fans about the game we all love, whatever level our club happens to be playing at. There are different issues between clubs and Trusts at different levels but what is a constant is the passion which fans bring to their discussions about their clubs and every argument they make is based on what they believe will be best for the club, not how much money they might make out of it which I suspect plays a bigger part in the discussions whenever club chairmen meet.
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I was heartened to read some comments on this website (The Mag) encouraging supporters to join Newcastle United Supporters Trust (NUST), though I'm biased as someone who believes in 'fan power' and ultimately that supporters should have a say in how their club should be ran, preferably with a legal 'share' in their club.
Newcastle United FansUnder the banner of national organisation 'Supporters Direct' NUST are a registered co-operative with an elected Board whose ultimate aim is for Newcastle United fans to own a share, or all of our club.
There has been plenty of jumping up and down over the years about the Ashley regime and we've heard calls for boycotts/protests , the lot. Message boards/internet are full of fans suggesting that supporters should do 'x,y and z' but it never happens....and in general protest groups do nothing other than protest!
The problem is we keep rocking up and putting money into Ashley's pocket. I think we've probably all come to accept that nothing bothers Mr Ashley in any event, so even if fans had the stomach for mass protest/demonstrations etc the chances are it wouldn't bother him.
However, things are slowly changing in football . The German Model of 'fan ownership' has been shown to work, just look at the success of their domestic and national teams. We need to be a part of that change and whilst that may mean accepting in the short-term , at Newcastle, there is nothing of substance we can do, in the long-term we need to show we (the fans) should be an integral part of our club.
Ashley will not be here forever. He stills wants to sell, there's just no buyer yet. The only ones here for the long game are us, the fans. Rather than jump up and down in despair at what goes on at our club we need to get together as a responsible group to show that when the change comes, whether it be through a new owner or from a regulatory body, we are ready and should be a part of the set-up. The club has so much untapped potential and it's the supporters who can unlock it.
We are here for the long haul, it's so much more than a business.
Newcastle United, it's our life. I've just joined the Trust, come on let's sign up en masse!!
This article originally appeared on The Mag website - www.themag.co.uk
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The response from a lot of fans to the issue of ownership of their club is to dismiss it as nonsense. Since the birth of the Premier League, ownership of football clubs has increasingly been something mega-rich foreign investors have got involved with. The obscene amounts of money thrown at the game since Sky Sports built their business model around the Premiership attracts not only the modern mercenaries on the field but a new breed of football club owners able to access ever larger piles of “wonga” as the TV companies fight increasingly bloody battles for the rights to show football and attract global advertising revenues.
Despite the money being poured into the game now being counted in billions of pounds, very few of our Premier League clubs show a profit, indeed it’s the most successful clubs who consistently report the biggest losses in their accounts. Perhaps UEFA’s Financial Fair Play rules will change things. Whilst that’s an article for another day, it was interesting to read that at Arsenal’s AGM this month their Chief Executive explained to fans disgruntled by not winning anything since 2005 (oh to be disgruntled about not winning a domestic trophy for seven years, try a lifetime!) that he predicts that within a couple of years things will be very different for those clubs who have put their financial houses in order and comply with Financial Fair Play. Whatever some fans think about Mike Ashley’s style of ownership he seems to have a financial model that has created a sound base for the club.
What is really needed is a bit of heart and soul in how our clubs are run and that isn’t going to come from the current style of ownership. We seem to have forgotten that our clubs grew from within our local communities. Look back at the history of any of our clubs and you’ll be reading about boys clubs and community groups getting together to organise a local team to play football. We forget that when most clubs were established they were financed by the local butcher, baker and candlestick maker who whilst making the decisions on how their money was going to be spent were able to be harangued in the local pub or club every week about how things were being done. As the money coming into the game has increased, the distance between those in charge and the supporters has increased exponentially.
Owners and directors of football clubs have used them like toys or hobbies and when bored have thrown them to one side to pursue other things. Throughout all this the fans remain to pick up the pieces and put up with whatever we are left with. We find ourselves no nearer the decision makers. This must change and the time is right to make our voices heard and influence the future shape of football club governance. A Government debate on this very issue earlier this year clearly indicated cross party support for the principles of increased involvement of football fans in the governance of their clubs. The Government have stated that football clubs are stronger when they have supporters “at the heart of the club”. There has also been a recent European Parliament vote supporting the involvement of supporters in the ownership and governance of their clubs.
Is it pie in the sky to hope for the day when supporters will be involved in meaningful discussions with the owners of modern day football clubs? Last month’s excellent blog on the NUST website by Board Member Colin Whittle showed that it can be done, and is being done, by successful German clubs and is the norm in the Bundesliga. So what can we expect here?
In the Premier League only Swansea City are currently paving the way. They are 20% owned by their supporters’ trust and have an elected director on the board. In the lower leagues there are other examples including Wycombe in League Two who are majority owned by their supporters’ trust. Exeter City, again League Two, are in their 10th season since their supporters’ trust took the club from the brink of financial ruin. We all remember AFC Wimbledon, also League Two, being formed by the supporters of the old Wimbledon who refused to accept that their club was to become MK Dons and move to Milton Keynes. At the minute the Portsmouth Supporters' Trust are the preferred bidders to take over the running of their club from a succession of owners whose management of the club has taken them into administration and to the brink of extinction.
Wouldn’t it be fantastic for supporters to be invited to be involved when a club is doing well rather than as the last resort of a club in chaos and facing financial ruin. It is unrealistic to expect to be allowed to determine financial policy within a club but as a “fit and proper” supporters' trust we have much to offer as the conscience of the club and a reminder to owners that a football club has not only financial and commercial objectives but social and community responsibilities. Football fans are the only people to ensure the best interests of the club are protected through any and all transient influences of owners, managers and players. We are the permanent factor that holds the club together and that gives us the right to be involved in the governance of our club.
Now is the time for us to grasp the opportunity to achieve some real influence in the future of Newcastle United.
I want to finish by referring you to how “Horsey” finished his excellent article in the October Mag about his trip to Barcelona, the football club model for us on so many levels. He quotes Sir Bobby Robson :- “What is a club in any case? Not the buildings or the directors or the people who are paid to represent it. It’s not the television contracts, get-out clauses, marketing departments or executive boxes. It’s the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging, the pride in your city. It’s a small boy clambering up stadium steps for the very first time, gripping his father’s hand, gawping at that hallowed stretch of turf beneath him and, without being able to do a thing about it, falling in love.”
Tell me if he’s wrong.
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Anyone who watched Man City managing to scrape a draw in their Champions League game against Borussia Dortmund recently, may have wondered about the comparisons between the ‘best league in the world’ (that’s the Premier League by the way) and the German Bundesliga.
How about this then, going back to the opening day of the season and comparing the current Champions league winners Chelsea as against Germany’s finest. At their first home Premier League match this season, Chelsea, owned by a Russian oligarch, beat Reading 4-2 in front of 41,733 all-seated supporters whose vast majority of season tickets at Stamford Bridge cost at least £750 per season. Borussia Dortmund began this one by beating Werder Bremen 2-1, watched by 80,645 people, including 24,454 fans in a vast standing area, paying around £148 for their season tickets.
The prices demonstrate one of the many differences in approach between the two leagues. Whilst here in England ownership of football clubs is determined by the ‘free market’, In Germany the clubs are still ‘fan owned’, being controlled by their supporters andregulated by the league who hold that clubs must be majority owned (50% plus one of the shares) by their fans. This applies to all clubs, for example Bayern Munich have 185,000 members who own 82% of the football club. The remainder of the shares are sold for fortunes to major companies such as Adidas.
The German clubs operate with a management board running day-to-day operations and a supervisory board appointing the directors and overseeing their performance. The members of the supervisory board are elected at an annual general meeting, at which the supporter-members, according to a 50%+1 regulation, have a permanent majority. So, the supporters exercise direct, democratic control over the football clubs. The management board is delegated to run the club, it in turn delegates the football decisions to a coach and their staff, and the fans turn up to watch the fruits of their labours.
Last year, the clubs collectively made £43Mprofit, after tax, and reduced their liabilities, while here in England clubs seem to lurch from one financial disaster to another despite more and more money flooding into football via TV rights than ever before.
What has this got to do with Newcastle United you may ask? Well the latest furore over the sponsorship deal with Wonga has resulted in mostly negative comment but whether you are pro or against the deal, it’s been reached without any consultation or communication with Newcastle United supporters.
We have no idea whether it’s a good or bad deal in financial terms as against other bidders, whether or not the club considered moral issues, or indeed any idea of the rationale behind the decision. Many would say, well its Mr Ashley’s club he can do what he wants with it. I disagree, it’s our club, he simply has the keys at the moment and when he’s long gone we’ll still be here. The ‘German model’ has proved that fan ownership can be a massive success, here in England we’d appreciate a seat at the table to start off with.
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There can’t have been many people who observed this week’s news regarding the Hillsborough tragedy with anything other than total shock. It’s fair to say that supporters up and down the country have suspected some type of ‘cover up’ but the sheer magnitude has come as a surprise to even hardened supporters who thought they had witnessed everything over the years.
By way of reminder here is a list of some of the things that have been revealed;
- Of 164 police witness statements taken following the disaster, 116 were amended to remove any comments that were critical of the South Yorkshire Police.
- The weight of importance placed upon blood alcohol levels was inappropriate, and fuelled "persistent and unsustainable assertions about drunken fan behaviour not supported by evidence of moderate patterns of drinking unremarkable for a leisure event". Blood tests were taken from the dead to see if they had been drinking, and police record checks were also run with a view to "to impugn the reputations of the deceased."
- Documents show that allegations against Liverpool supporters were filed by White's News Agency, a Sheffield-based company, based on meetings held over three days between agency staff and the police, together with interviews with Irvine Patnick MP and the South Yorkshire Police Federation Secretary, Paul Middup.
- The original pathologists' evidence of a single unvarying pattern of death was based on a false assumption, but it remained the basis of a coroner's imposition of a 3.15pm cut-off on evidence to the inquests. It led to the mistaken belief that an effective emergency service intervention could not have saved lives. In some cases, death was not immediate and the outcome depended on events after 3.15pm.
- 41 people had the potential to survive the 3.15pm cut-off, but it is impossible to say how many of these would have survived.
All truly sad and shocking. For Mags of a certain age the common thought has always been ‘there but for the Grace of God’. Looking back at away matches before all seater stadiums it wasn’t uncommon to feel your feet lifted off the ground and carried with the flow of the crowd.In particular I can recall an FA Cup tie away to Spurs in 1987 that was particularly scary and perhaps more poignant, given the subsequent disaster, away at Sheffield Wednesday at the very same end where 96 Liverpool fans tragically died, when we visited on boxing day in 1985.
It’s probably little consolation for the families affected but the truth is now out.
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The recent death of Freddie Fletcher saw the passing away of a colourful character who revolutionised the commercial side of Newcastle United.
I know there were issues with the Club when Freddie was in charge, particularly on the save-our-seats issue, but NUFC was beginning to realise its potential as a Club both at home and in Europe, and Freddie Fletcher played a major part in that.
Over the past few years the Trust had regular meetings with Freddie to get his views on how he thought football in general and the Club in particular should be run. We found him very keen to help and he gave us his ideas in a very friendly and open way. It was obvious that although born in Greenock, Newcastle United Football Club meant as much to him as any Toon fan.
He felt that the current model of football governance was in need of a big shake up and unlike most of the current FA hierarchy, he saw no reason why the supporters of the Club should at least have a say in how their Club was run.
He felt that in future Newcastle United should be run by a strong Chief Executive with a football manager with complete control over all first team matters, including the final say on any transfers in or out, and control of coaches, Club doctors and physios.
He also wanted a football technical director with wide experience and worldwide contacts to take charge of worldwide scouting, youth development and all teams below the first team.
Both the football manager and the football technical director would report to the chief executive who would also develop all the commercial aspects of the Club (in particular by extending the Gallowgate, which Freddie said the club already had planning permission to do).
Like all of us at the Trust, he felt that given a long-term plan NUFC had the potential to increase its income and become a major European club. And he saw no reason why supporters should not be represented at board level within his new set-up.
Sadly, of course, he has not lived to see this happen, but the Trust will continue to fight for a vision of the Club, and we will miss his help and support that he so freely and generously gave the Trust.
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When people talk about fan ownership and representation, they often refer to Swansea City FC, where the Supporters' Trust has a minority share, or Wimbledon and Wrexham FCs where the fans wholly own the clubs. As instructive as they are, Newcastle United fans need only look across the river and to another sport to see how this might operate in practice. Gateshead Thunder rugby league club is part owned by the fans.
Gateshead Thunder was formed in 1999 and were dropped straight into Super League, rugby league's elite competition. The owners then decided, after one season, to merge the club with Hull and to relocate to East Yorkshire. Over the next decade or so, Gateshead Thunder fans have discovered that owners intentions are not always compatible with those of the fans. This happened most recently in 2009, when the club narrowly avoided relegation from the 2nd tier of the sport. However, the owners decided that they were no longer prepared to fund the club and, a month after their "great escape" (the club had been bottom of the table most of the season), the owner began liquidation proceedings.
I was the CEO of the club at the time and with the other staff a business plan was prepared which the governing body approved. Gateshead Thunder were back in business. However, it was a different type of business. On field results were not the major driver. Instead the club decided that being self sustaining was the most important aspect of the business plan. They rejected the notion of having a benefactor – a concept that had served the club so badly in the past. The new owners took the view that this was the club's last chance and that breaking even financially each year was critical.
However, the new shareholders (a management buy out of sorts) also took the view that the club had only ever survived on the goodwill of the fans. The fan club were therefore offered a 25% stake in the club. To do this, the fan club needed to reform as a Supporters' Trust, which they did with the support of Supporters Direct.
Today the club struggles on the pitch. However, it is still delivering its major objectives when it was recovered from the flames. It is self sustaining and it is part owned by the fans.
No two situations are alike and it is unlikely that Newcastle United will suffer to the extent that Gateshead Thunder has. However, it is a local example of how a professionally run sport club can be self sustaining and still embrace fan ownership or representation. The Gateshead Thunder Supporters' Trust want the same thing as the owners: a successful and sustainable club. Newcastle United Supporters' Trust can work with Newcastle United to help deliver the successful club everyone wants.
(Rod Findlay has been CEO of 2 professional rugby league clubs : Gateshead Thunder and Crusaders, and has recently joined the board at NUST)
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When Downing Street briefed its intention to include a plan to give football fans more powers in the running of their clubs in Labour’s 2010 general election manifesto, the critics carped that this was another pie-in-the-sky proposal from a government that was gasping for breath. While the cynics suggested it was a craven attempt to curry favour with a section of the electorate who rarely makes it to the polling station, Gordon Brown’s commitment to football governance had far-reaching consequences.
Eager to nullify Labour’s unexpected lurch into the beautiful game, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats rushed out pledges of their own. After the formation of the coalition, there was even a commitment in the coalition agreement ‘to support the cooperative ownership of football clubs by their supporters’. For much of this parliament, there has been a strong cross-party consensus on the need for reform of a game that has slowly been eating itself. New sports minister Hugh Robertson described football ‘as the worst governed sport in Britain’ and a select committee inquiry into the game’s governance endorsed radical proposals like a more independent FA, a licensing system similar to the one that operates in Germany to eliminate debt and regulatory tweaks to give supporters’ groups more rights to run their own clubs.
How disappointing it was to hear on Friday, the same day that Port Vale came the latest in a long list of British sides to call in the administrators, that the football authorities had produced such a pitiful response to the select committee report. In a begrudging acceptance of the need for change, the ‘core’ football stakeholders delivered a fudge that demonstrated precisely why so many fans now question whether they have the game’s best interests at heart. The FA stood accused of surrendering the authority to investigate their members, while leading football writers described the game’s governing body as languishing in the Premier League’s shadow.
Most serious of all was the government’s apparently ‘enthusiastic’ welcome for this piecemeal package. The vague recognition of the benefits of licensing was far from ideal, given that this safeguard against the English’s game debt mountain would be the most effective means of making football sustainable. Since 1992, 92 clubs, from Premier League to what was formerly known as the conference, have become insolvent – the equivalent of the entire top four divisions of professional football. The spectre of Portsmouth looms large, with the troubled south coast club in their second spell in administration in just two seasons, and poor old Darlington have had four periods of insolvency in 15 years.
As with so many other issues the government has mismanaged, there’s a real opportunity for Labour here. Our record on football in government was respectable, from the setting up of Supporters’ Direct, which still helps supporters run their own clubs today, to the work of the Football Foundation in promoting the grassroots game. The Labour benches aren’t short of passionate speakers on the subject either. Steve Rotheram’s emotional Hillsborough tribute was one of the best parliamentary addresses in recent memory, while Tom Greatrex brings to the Commons the experience of having founded a Premier League supporters’ trust at Fulham. If Ed Miliband wants to continue his recent upsurge in the polls, he could do far worse than backing the campaign for more imaginative reform of the people’s game.
Daniel Crawford is a Labour councillor in the London borough of Ealing and on the committee of the Fulham Supporters’ Trust as Communications & Media Officer. This article originally appeared on www.progressonline.org.uk
For those of you who don’t know, Sean Hamil is the academic director of the MSc Sport Management and the Business of Football at Birkbeck College, and a Director of the Birkbeck Sport Business Centre. Sean is also a lecturer on the UEFA Certificate in Football Management (CFM) management development programme for executives in UEFA member national associations, focusing on the topic of the organisation and governance of world and European football.
Since joining Birkbeck, Sean has focused on his core interest - the corporate governance and regulation of sport on which he has written and co-edited an extensive range of articles – notably the 2001-2003 editions of the State of the Game corporate governance of English football review - and a number of books including, among others, The Changing Face of the Football Business: Supporters Direct; Football in the Digital Age: Whose Game Is It Anyway?; and A Game of Two Halves? The Business of Football. Sean was invited to give oral evidence to the 2011 House of Commons Culture, Media and Sport Committee Enquiry into the Governance of Football and his contribution was quoted extensively in the final report. He has recently been involved in reviewing Corporate Social Responsibility practice in the Scottish Premier League, with subsidiary analysis of CSR practice in English football. Obviously, the main talking points of this first discussion is the emergence of English football in the Premier League era and what seems to be at stake now that the financial crisis has hit the marketplace. If you think that it is all doom and gloom for the sport, there is the potential this may be the case, but how to explain the odd attachment in economic terms that fans and supporters have with their clubs.
At the end of last year Sean (who also studied in Newcastle for a number of years and has a great affinity for both the city and football club) kindly came up to Newcastle and gave a talk at an event organised by NUST, click here to read the presentation his talk was based on.
Sean Hamil is also much in demand by the media and listen here to a very good interview he gave to the website ‘Beyond The Pitch’. Sean really knows his stuff and combines that with a very ‘human’ delivery of what can be quite a dry topic. He is dedicated to the future well being of our favourite sport and is well worth going to see at a future presentation if you have the opportunity.